I’ve noticed a lot of people, almost always life-long atheists, claim that religion is a choice. It’s often said in the context of whether or not religion should be afforded the same protection as things like race or sexual orientation, due to the fact that religion is a choice.
I agree that religion is not the same as race or sexual orientation (which themselves are not the same as each other). But is religion a choice?
I say, no. At least, not in the sense that one usually talks about something being a choice.
I didn’t choose to stop believing in god; I just did. It was like a switch went off (or on). Once it did, there was no going back.
I have read many deconversion stories since then and so many of the people who left Christianity – who stopped believing in Christianity – wanted badly to still believe.
If belief is a choice, then why couldn’t they go back to believing?
Belief is a complex process. It is not as simple as choosing to believe or not.
A friend of my mother has been having some problems with her adult daughter. She, the daughter, recently joined a cult, but then stopped believing what the cult believed. Unfortunately, she had already married into the cult and is in need of her mother’s help to get out. She feels like it wasn’t her fault that she believed all of that stuff, like she couldn’t help it.
I was discussing with my mom whether or not this is a case of “she got herself into this mess.” (My mom’s the tough love type.) I was trying to explain that when you really believe in a religion, it is almost like you have no control over your thoughts, but not exactly.
It’s really hard to explain.
When I look back on things that I believed, I can’t believe that was me. I’ve taken to calling my 5 years as a Christian my “Jesus coma” because it was like my brain was shut off.
I’m not saying that people are not responsible for what they do when they are under the influence of religion, just that there is more to it than a simple, conscious choice.
So, if you’re an atheist, don’t get frustrated at the seemingly impenetrable layer of stupidity encasing the brains of religious people. They are not deliberately choosing to be obtuse.
And keep the conversations going. You would be amazed at the number of things people said to me in debates over the years – things that I had completely dismissed at the time – that came flooding back into my mind when I started to have serious doubts about my beliefs.
Even when you feel like you are not getting through, you are planting seeds, to borrow a biblical metaphor, that may some day yield fruit.
The people who usually tell me that belief is a choice are the theists. I’ve been told again and again that I’ve chosen to not believe in God. Sure, I chose to alienate most of my friends and family and put myself through the emotional anguish of losing something that was part of my core identity. Good post.
Thanks.
Yes, I see where theists would also say that. What I meant was that the atheists who say that are usually the life-long atheists who have never been through a deconversion, where they went through all of the things you describe. Really, who would choose to go through that!
I would like to recommend a very thoughtful (if somewhat heavy) movie I just watched called “Architects of Control” by Michael Tsarion.
It deals with the human mind and reasoning. It touches on cults and religions in a way that may help shed some light on this particular topic.
When my sister converted to Christianity during her teens it caused an upheaval and rift in our family and is still difficult (at times) to navigate around.
Klaatu, in THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, 1951: “No, that power (over life and death) is reserved for the Almighty Spirit.” A better view of God than our Earthly Christian, Muslim, etc. Gods. You know, we’re like NOT the only critters out and about in the universe. Or does each planet have its own separate Gods? I think not. I like to think of the Almighty Spirit as the energy and science of the heart and soul coupled with a good dose of Tinkerbell. It’s unfortunate that we don’t consider God something that may have created the Big Bang–or had been created by it, or even of it ITself. The only power that is going to ‘save us’ is our own selves.
I often long for a little sprinkle of the Almighty Spirit’s fairy dust. I’d probably try to snort it first.
Mike,
I am not quite sure what you’re saying. Perhaps it doesn’t matter. But it seems you’re saying that no one would “choose” to live a life that would alienate friends and family. But people of all kinds “choose” that sort of thing; alienating friends and family is in many ways rather common. And yes, it is often chosen. Is it your assertion that atheism is NOT chosen, and that those who have been alienated from you should look at themselves to explain that alienation?
Or are you saying that instead of actually choosing NOT to believe in God, you chose instead to alienate your friends and family?
I am sorry for being obtuse, but I am can’t possibly be understanding you correctly.
Peace.
Dear Charity,
You wrote:
So, if you’re an atheist, don’t get frustrated at the seemingly impenetrable layer of stupidity encasing the brains of religious people. They are not deliberately choosing to be obtuse.
You’re not saying that religious people’s brains are encased in stupidity, are you? What you mean to say is that atheists perceive themselves as NOT BEING encased in stupidity, and that atheists might get impatient with those religious folks who think differently about certain matters, right? Of course, there are stupid people, religious or not. But I don’t think you mean to suggest all religious people are stupid, at least WILLFULLY stupid.
But now that I think about it, it seems clear you are saying that ALL religious people are accidentally stupid; that they don’t choose to be obtuse. Seriously, I am not trying to misrepresent your words. I am trying to understand exactly what you mean. I guess one might argue that your use of “seemingly” modifies “stupidity”, but that would be a stretch, as “seemingly” clearly modifies “impenetrable.”
Obviously, I am a theist, even a religious one. Forgive me if I stumble over your presumed enlightenment, or, more accurately, your gnosticism. I don’t mean this in the traditional sense; I am not implying you are a heretic. But what I am saying is that you’ve presented yourself as possessing knowledge others don’t possess; that, unlike you, religious folks are lost in an obtuseness that is not as thick as it looks.
In other words, you sound a bit like some of the evangelicals I know: They KNOW, and I don’t; I am lost, and THEY are not. Obviously, one can’t keep a conversation going long with that sort of proposition posited at the outset, that’s for sure.
Please tell me I am wrong.
Peace.
BG
Mike,
I love the odd little slip in my comment to you: “I am sorry for being obtuse, but I am …” Indeed, I can’t help myself, I guess.
Peace and mirth,
BG
Bill,
I am not saying that religious people are stupid. Just that when an atheist tries to explain something that seems obvious to him, and a religious person just seems incapable of getting it, the religious person is not deliberately trying to not get it, or even too stupid to get it, it’s just that they believe what they believe. There is no conscious choice being made to refuse to understand what the atheist is saying.
I don’t know if I explained that any better.
I said that while thinking about the conversations atheists had with me when I was a Christian where I just could not understand what they were saying and how those things are plain as day to me now.
“In other words, you sound a bit like some of the evangelicals I know: They KNOW, and I don’t; I am lost, and THEY are not.”
I don’t pretend to KNOW anything. I can’t say for certain that there is no god, but I find it hard to believe.
I was not referring to whether or not there is a god, I was referring to logical fallacies in religious beliefs or contradictions in the bible, for example. There are some religious people, and I was one, who seem like they just can’t comprehend those things and think about them critically. And that tends to frustrate atheists.
Dear Charity,
Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate it.
OK. Let me play “Devil’s Advocate” for a moment. If the theist has no conscious choice in being obtuse, then what accounts for his inability to see what the atheist so plainly sees? If it is not a matter of will, is it a matter of competence? Is religious belief the result of certain cognitive limitations? Is belief in God a form of mental illness?
Obviously, if belief in God, even devout belief in God, is the result of mental illness, there are a lot of mentally ill people on this planet. There are literally billions of theists in the world. And most of them are doing quite fine. And when I couple this fact with Darwin’s theory, it seems clear that theism, even fundamentalism, have survived really rather well — for millennia. Should I overlook the fact that theism seems a function of successful evolution?
Plus, where does this all place me? Am I cognitively blocked; do I have blinders on, even blinders against my will? Is my theism an illness? Do I have some cognitive deficiency? Or have I just not had the arguments against theism lined up for me in the right way?
Also, I recognize that you placed in CAPS the word KNOW to indicate you don’t claim to “know” anything in any special way. But I don’t think that’s entirely fair. You do claim to know something, namely, the “logical fallacies in religious beliefs or contradictions in the bible.” No doubt you are a soft-atheist or agnostic here; you do not “know” whether God exists, you just know that the idea of God’s existence is hard to believe. And I would have to agree with you, at least partly. God’s existence is not always easy to accept.
Here’s a theory: Atheism is the result of wealth. Let me put it this way. There was a time when a man’s work, his “vocation”, and his survival, were identical: a man awoke each morning with no other task but to build and secure shelter, to harvest food, to protect his water sources, and to protect his family. He had no time for leisure, except, perhaps, after his work was done (and it rarely was), or when, in the company of a tribe, he could rest, knowing others were nearby to help.
Eventually, of course, things changed, and rather quickly, at least in some parts of the world. Once the world had been largely domesticated and systemized; once the world had become a wealthier place, a man could be divorced from his survival needs, free to pursue other pleasures. Instead of waking up each morning to till soil, hunt game, or drop timber for fields and houses, a man could make a living studying butterflies, or clouds, or microbes. Centuries ago, mankind was not wealthy enough to allow such pursuits: even today, only wealthy cultures permit a man to become a millionaire writing books about fictional spies. I doubt 2000 years ago many people dreamed of someday being a concert pianist or a prize-winning botanist or a world-class poet, as such dreams can only be dreamt by people well past worrying about surviving any given day.
Hence, because atheism is largely represented by members of that social strata that are well-educated, living in highly developed cultures, atheism is really the result of being estranged from reality. There is no need for belief in God when medicine, food, transportation, and security are so easily available. Alas, mankind is approaching the New Eden, the one in his own image, of his own making. Life is good, leisure is abundant. Everyone is safe, able to dream dreams, able to pursue careers in arcana or studies in minutia. God is superfluous, unnecessary. We can divert water; we have our own cisterns; we make our own snow — and the lame can walk and the blind can see.
Atheism, seemingly, is a luxury enjoyed by the leisure class. And yes, you and I are in that class; being Americans, we have much right at our fingertips. Do you know how many people in the world right now do not have the leisure — or the money — to be writing a blog on a computer?
I recognize I have just written a form of the “there are no atheists in foxholes” argument. But it strikes me, as I explore this world, that atheism is enjoyed mostly among those classes that have few of life’s most brutal, daily-grind struggles. Atheism looks, at least to some of us, like a pastime. And as a political weapon, atheism was imposed on millions of people, but not by the poorest farmers in charge of the Politburo or some other totalitarian arm. It was imposed on people by the intelligentsia, the leisure class, the ruling class.
But I wander.
Peace.
(Forgive my verbosity.)